Invading foreign countries causes chaos, not peace and democracy

Britian's defence secretary has said that the presence of UK troops in Afghanistan has energized the Taleban. The same goes for US and Canadian troops of course.

In a strongly tribal country, the mere presence of foreign troops can cause the previously bad guys to become heroes and defenders.

Meanwhile, top British and US officials have said that Iraq risks a civil war.

This should put to rest the neo-con pipe dream that invading and bombing countries for "peace", "democracy" and "freedom" works ...

Update 2016-07-05:

Thirteen years after invading Iraq, and 10 years after I the above post, we have chaos in Iraq. The so called Islamic State just killed over 165 people in Baghdad, bombed Median (near the Prophet's mosque), and much more. Islamic State would not have existed if Iraq and Afghanistan were not invaded.

Listen to Kadhim, an Iraqi who started toppling Saddam's statue in a famous media moment seen across the world. He says Saddam was bad, but there was order, and Tony Blair and George W Bush are criminals.

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Comments

That is like saying that if

That is like saying that if police stations are shut down and law enforcement personnel leave,then the thugs/criminals of the area will live in peace and harmony and stop criminal activities....

Just the mere presence of police makes the thugs/criminals heroes...so we should stop policing?

NATO forces should leave afg ASAP so that Taliban/AQ can regroup,retrain and attack again???

I wonder why these UN mandated, NATO led forces are doing there to begin with....after 911 we should have send flowers to the Taliban/AQ and asked for forgiveness and mercy.....

No, false analogy

This is a false analogy.

First police are "internal" to a country, not an invading army. They are paid for by the citizens of the country, and there are checks and balances on them (mostly) since all are subject to the same laws, legislature, courts, ...etc. So the accountability is there.

Second, police do not invade citizens in their homes, like what foreign armies do, nor do the police use aerial strikes and bombs. War is very different from policing.

Invading a foreign country, like what the USA has done in Iraq, is totally different. The USA is acting like it is the police of the world, but no one appointed it in such role, and there is no consent by the people invaded for this.

Moreover, the USA is not subject to local laws, nor are they answerable to the people being invaded.

Look at what is happening in Iraq now because of a foreign invasion: extremism is more than before, the country is on the brink of civil war, and there is less security for the citizens there. There is more suffering and misery because of that invasion.

In Afghanistan, you still have the local warlords, you have an opium epidemic, and Bin Laden was not caught.
--
Khalid Baheyeldin

First police are "internal"

First police are "internal" to a country, not an invading army...

I am not sure how can you classify it as "invading army", these forces are their at the request of a democratically elected gov of Karzai....we are providing security for NGO and building the nation at there request...now they have democracy, women in parliment, girls going to schools, people have health care, roads being built....do you think this will continue once NATO pull out as you suggested? When your nation is attacked by some other nation, you send the army, not local police force..hence US replied with army after 911. If Egypt had been attacked on 911, what your president would have done? asked afghan national police to start policing taliban/AQ? I don't think so...

nor do the police use aerial strikes and bombs. War is very different from policing.

Yes, war is very different, AQ/Taliban should have thought about all that before plotting 911.....As NATO is providing security for the citizens and helping afghan central government to build infrastructure and training their police force and Army, they are being constantly attacked...so any army will defend itself and will retaliate with appropriate weapons....this is not a hard concept to understand. No army wants to be a sitting duck

NATO forces follow UN Geneva conventions and internationl laws of armed conflict. Local laws have to respected.

In Afghanistan, you still have the local warlords, you have an opium epidemic, and Bin Laden was not caught

So if NATO leaves afg, local warlords and opium will be finished? OBL will be caught? I don't think so.....Warloads and opium are socio-economic fabric of afg...if you want to eradicate it, then you need to provide economic development, and this is what NATO forces are doing, providing security for development....helping the central gov. to get stronger and stand on its own feet, so that they can protect themselves and are not at the mercy of Taliban/AQ. It is very naive thinking that once NATO leaves, all afg problems will be solved by itself, Taliban/AQ will lay their weapons, become peaceful member of society and start helping in the nation building.....the central gov realized that it will not happen and hence they have asked us to stay...

Circular logic

No matter how you describe it, it does not computer. Karzai was not really "democratically elected". He was a protege of the USA all along, and was effectively "appointed" after the initial invasion. So when he asks for troops, it is not really policing. He has local police and more willing to enlist. Why not rely on them? Because he is unpopular with many there, because of what I just said above.

His own body guards are American troops, not local Afghanis. What does this tell you?

So, circular logic here: you can't rely on him asking for legitimizing this.

Both Iraq and Afghanistan cases show how the US intervention leaves it in a situation where chaos will ensue regardless of the US remains or leaves. It is a lose-lose situation.

Not to say that there are some upsides, but all in all, there are very serious downsides that cannot be whitewashed, no matter how much spinning goes on. And these downsides will have long term ramifications, locally, globally and for the USA as well.
--
Khalid Baheyeldin

Afganistan

It is ridiculous to say that "The legitimately elected democratic government of Afganistan invited the western world in". Afghanistan has never had the opportunity to develop their brand of a democratic culture. Cyprus has had over 40 years and they still need baby sitters ; Afghanistan will need many more years than this before they have a culture which can survive without some form of babysitters. Until the country already has a mature culture, they cannot truly have a democratic culture. They certainly have a puppet government -- and a puppet government is all we can expect them to have.

Afghanistan is seriously screwed up. This is not news. Afghanistan has been screwed up for centuries. It has been in the crossroads of many many military conquests. Every passing conquering nation has effectively raped the indigenous Afgan population. They have not had had a chance to be able to develop a stable, peaceful rhythm.. They were raped by the capitalist wold fighting the Soviet Union. They have been raped by the Taliban fighting the American world. Now they continue to be brutalized as the western world and taliban world as they shift back and forth.

Shortly after 9/11, the communal voice of the world's governments stated, in effect, that Afghanistan was so severely screwed up, that Afghanistan needed to be dismantled and rebuilt. Whether or not this was the correct decision is now moot. Every country that raised its voice bears the responsibility to stay in Afghanistan until the people themselves can grow a new stable culture.

I have no real issue with the world deciding to take responsibility for Afghanistan. My issue is the _way_ in which the world is engaging in the rebuilding of Afghanistan. Bin Laden and everyone in the Taliban and Al Qaeda are going to die some day. Any attempt to kill these people is misguided. The Grim Reaper will find them without our help. The REAL war is for the hearts and minds of the people who have not sold their souls to Al Qaeda. The West needs to make people embarrassed to be associated with these groups. The West needs to make the people in these groups feel like fools, not martyrs. We can't do this while we are providing such wonderful training and recruitment grounds for Al Qaeda.

Which brings me back to the first comment on this thread: "after 911 we should have send flowers to the Taliban/AQ". If we HAD relentlessly sent goodwill ("flowers") and _extended_ forgiveness and mercy after 9/11; If we had dedicated ourselves to winning the hearts and minds of the people in Afghanistan; If we had decided to let Bin Laden die a destitute, delusional, ignored old man; If we had focused on our own internal security flaws; Perhaps a lot more money and lives would have been saved. Perhaps the USA would not have squandered the massive goodwill in the world that it purchased with the 3000 lives on 9/11.

leave afghanistan

If you consider that the 911 attacks were most likely staged events then all arguments for war on terror are bs.consider again that everything the US gov and especially the pentagon say is always a lie.then you can be sure that anything stated about the events in 2001 is almost guaranteed to be a lie.Killing sheep herders and thier families in remote valleys of Afghanistan to protect Americans.well you would have to be a total retard to believe that.but wait!! attas passport blew out of his pocket through the fireball and landed on the sidewalk in front of the towers.and in the car they took to the airport were terrorist training manuals.yeah sure believe away.
my point is that the framework used to discuss the solutions for Afghanistan can never lead to a solution because the purpose of the war is never included in the discussions.You people need to fund free universities and learn to think before you can begin to consider making war on any more peoples of the world.the slaughter has been nonstop since I was born in 1960.You people disgust me as human beings.far beyond redemption.so much blood on you hands you should all get free barrels of blood from you gov. and bathe in it every night with your family and towel off with your precious flag.don't worry about me.the worst I would do to anyone is maybe quote Plato.I just tell it like it is.you are sick and confused and spiraling ever downward.

Misguided

Your argument is bogus, because simply the attacks were not staged.

We Muslims go into denial that Bin Laden and Al-Qaeda did plan these attacks, and then it makes us go into the victim state of the mind.

The attacks, and the abuse of the attacks are two different things: the fact that a rogue group planned and executed them does not give ANYONE the right to invade entire countries the way the Bush Administration did for Afghanistan and Iraq.

Muslim people or Muslim countries are different entities from Al-Qaeda and should not be held responsible for the those acts.

Not to mention that these wars are counterproductive to the purpose of stopping future attacks by terrorist groups: in fact, these wars probably created more militants and provided motivation for thousands who were not militant before them ...

I could well be wrong but I

I could well be wrong but I believe the US dropped those three buildings like a bad habit.
I'm American and not Muslim,I enjoy Muslim culture and people and your gracious warm hospitality.I don't care much for organized religion although I do care for the higher Ideals of humanism and the Ideal of humbling yourself before others as a path to enriching your spirit.I like these teaching threads that are at the core of all religious philosophy.I just don't like the control aspect and the limits on free thaught imposed by structured religions.I like the culture music food and hospitality and the intelligence of peoples in Muslim countries.
As an American I can assure you that it was no coincidence that the entire cabinet of the presidency to the last man were neocons.the same exact people from vietnam era.I said to everyone that America would be at war and serious war within six mo If those psychopaths were elected to power.During Vietnam 3.5 million people were slaughtered and one third of all arable land was poisoned with chemical weapons.More bombs were dropped on Laotian and Cambodian peasant farmers than all the bombs dropped in ww2.All these elected and appointed people were tied to defense contractor interests.that's why these current wars expanded the use of private contractors to a degree never before seen.
America is a propaganda machine.Do not let them fool you.to see their true nature look to their actions.never their words.I've traveled my entire life and I have never encountered a people who lie like americans.they don't have any integrity like normal peoples.words to them are nothing.Lying is pervasive in buisiness religeon finance,education, politics, military,police,and every last aspect of the culture.
I'm stuck here now because I can't sell property I developed before the housing crash.I can't wait to sell and leave and kick the dust off my feet and toss my passport in the first trash can I pass when I return to the free world again.
Peace be with you good health and watch out for falling buildings.

The real crime

Thank you for your comments, and calm dialog.

I hear you on the control vs. culture side of the argument. Misuse of religion (or any ideology) for power is bad.

My comments on 9/11 denial go equally to Muslim 9/11 deniers as well as the non-Muslim 9/11 Truth movement.

The real crime is the misuse/abuse of the 9/11 attacks, and making them an excuse for heinous acts, whether they are invasions of 2 countries, eroding civil liberties, Guantanamo Bay, manufactured terror trials, ... etc.

The evil genius action here is to exploit an event that landed in their lap to the full extent to further ideological agendas they have been planning all through the 1990s. Because you correctly mentioned the entire cabinet were neocons, you must have read about the Project for the New American Century (PNAC), and know that they advocated removing Saddam and many other things that started to be enacted in 2003.

By moving the dialog from the real crimes to "who did it", the real debate is not happening. Conspiracy theories are seductive, and their real danger is distraction from the real issues.

Lastly, there is a difference between the American government, the entrenched power players, and the people at large. America still has a lot of good in it, but the politics and foreign policy needs major reform.

I don't follow conspiracy

I don't follow conspiracy theories.I am too much of a balanced critical thinker and can pick apart the theories pretty quickly.I was living in Japan when the towers were dropped and my OPINIONS were formed from my own knowledge of how America works.
Yes it is illegal to make wars of aggression. America creates events to allow it to make war and to circumvent treaties and to get it's population behind the wars.The war cabinet put in place before the events 2001 weren't there by chance.If a corporation has an interest of profit at stake and an elected gov needs to be overthrown and a dictator installed and propped up through torture mass arrests and slaughter of intellectuals,journalists,trade unionists etc..then that's what America does.Examples,Chile,Guatemala,Nicaragua,Iran,El Salvador,Indonesia,The Philippines,etc..

Of Amnesty internationals list of the worst human rights violators in the western hemisphere,almost every name on the list.Was a graduate of the school of the Americas in ft Bragg Georgia.They teach that the enemy of the state are intellectuals,the poor,Journalists and trade unionists,alternative political parties,and the church.They advocate no due process indefinite detention Extreme torture and summary executions.The Graduates then returned to their respective countries and the madness begins.The school was shut down by congress due to public protest. The school was moved across the st and renamed and the textbooks had their covers changed and the military laughed at congress.
All through the seventies Europe experienced terrorist bombings.School buses,Train stations,discotheques,coffee shops,.and blamed on left wing socialist parties.the operation (Gladio)was uncovered by Italian parliament investigations and found to be run from NATO headquarters American offices and shut down.There were no prosecutions and the terrorist bombings just stopped completely from that time until recently.
If America had any interest in ending terrorism then they could take action at home and fill a hundred Guantanamo's with real perpetrators of terror from within their own gov. and bring world peace overnight.The America of my parents generation is long gone..Thank god for the EU China and Russia.If you have optimism for the future of the world I encourage you to look in these directions.I love the free world.Can't wait to get home and live with a clean conscience.I used to wake up with a huge smile every morning.At least the war pigs and soldiers will be haunted for all their days on earth.PTSD is really just a guilty conscience for crimes so horrible that the memory drives the soldiers insane with dread and guilt every waking moment until they leave this world.there really is justice built into the universe.and perhaps a god after all.

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