Warning to female tourists thinking of marrying Egyptians

I see the poster's reasons for the behaviour of these men as excuses because no one in Egypt including the women of Egypt make an effort to dissuay this behaviour.

The effort of normal Egyptians will depend on where in society they are. The vast majority of Egyptians will not see these immoral and criminal behavior simply because these activities go in tourist areas.

As you have seen from comments, there are those who deny that these things even happen, and I have been accused of being a disloyal Egyptian, trying to bring disrepute to Egypt, a participant in a conspiracy, ...etc. Just for publishing what emails I got from women asking about army service in Egypt.

Those Egyptians who are exposed to them but disapprove of them, like Pasposa, have taken steps to caution women from what is going on there.

The rest of Egyptians will shun the person if they know what they are engaged in. They will refuse him as a friend, a potential son in law, ...etc.

Part of the success of these scams is that they are perpetrated by people away from family and society in an artifical enclave created for tourists. It is a given that these people are oblivious to religious teaching or social norms. Away from parents, uncles, aunts, peers, they feel no shame in doing what they did. Back in their village or town, they would have thought about their reputation, and social pressure that would normally prevent them from doing this.

It is convenient to blame the western women that visit Egypt for seducing their men and saying it is okay for the men to have sex with the women for monetry gain but it is the women that are labelled as "whores". What about the men that sell themselves for money? Is this culturally accepted too?

I have been clear on this, and let me repeat it: there is no justification for what these men do, even if they seduced by women intentionally. The men are as guilty as the women, and then more guilty by scamming. One crime does not justify another.

If you read the comments, there was a conversation with one person who tried to justify all this, and me (among others) answered forcefully on this matter.

Regarding your comment above - you note that this generally applies to Americans and I am not American. I was also not discussing un-wanted pregnancies but this does occur in the scammed relationships between western female tourists and Egyptian men. These babies mostly never get to know their fathers and/or can be caught between two cultures. Do Egyptians condone these ment turning their backs on these children and is that okay in their culture? I am asking this question because I know of very few children of these inter cultural relationships that have been raised by the two parents.

I was just posing an unrelated matter where East and West see things differently. Not making an analogy. Ignore this for now, since it will cause the conversation to go on tangents, and that was not the intention.

As you have noted this whole subject of Egyptian men and foreign women fascinates me. I am trying to get a grasp on why this is such an issue expecially in Egypt. My own relationship has worked but it has come with time and much understanding from both sides. My husband is a practising Muslim but also respects Christianity and is a very hard working and honest man who makes his own money and has no need for mine. He does not sit in shisha and internet cafes dreaming up ways to scam women tourists and he does not think ill of other nationalities and I think this is where the difference lies.

Respect for Christians and Christianity -- while at the same time disagreeing in theology -- is something in the Quran itself, so no wonder that your husband is like that. My mom's best friend was Christian, who passed away recently. My grandfather had a Jew as a business partner (before 1948).

And most Egyptian men are like your husband: hard working, honest, with a sense of humor even.

Your husband is not someone who is superficially pious, but understands and practices the essense of his religion, not just the letter ...

The enclosed enclaves of tourism have created a separate ecosystem from Egyptian society. Each ecosystem has parasites and scavengers. Those are the parasites of society.

So why does this scamming, lying ans stealing mentality occur with other Egyptian men? I see it as a result of faults on both sides. On one hand foreign women are being lured by the handsome dark skinned men and being vulnerable for attention in the prime of their lives through being divorced, widowed or just lonely. On the other hand ,the Egyptian men see the foreign women as "rich" with a wealth that can take them out of poverty and to the giddy heights of spoilt lives that they never dreamed.

Don't generalize on the few tens of thousand workers in tourism with the 83 million Egyptians.

You have explained some of the reasons. There are many more reasons: poor economy in general in Egypt makes it hard to make an honest living, very expensive to get married while attractive white women want sex, and willing to compensate for it, greed, loose morality, isolation of tourist areas and shielding from the rest of society, ...etc.

If these relationships are such a moral and religious problem to the Egyptians and the Egyptian authorities then why have these gigalos never been stopped and why is the "Orfi" marriage so convenient? I wonder ......

I don't know why authorities look the other way. Perhaps there are not enough complaints from victims. Perhaps they are afraid to make a fool of themselves by complaining. Perhaps the officers are on the take and share the spoils. Perhaps the fact that it is all behind closed doors make it hard to prosecute. I don't really now.

As for Orfi marriage زواج عرفي, this is another big topic in Egypt. It deserves its own article, but I will summarize here.

Initially Orfi was a term that was given to unregistered marriages. When a couple announced that they are getting married, they held a wedding, and there were witnesses, and everyone went and had a good meal, and it was known that Mr X and Mrs Y are married. No need to register it in court.

Sadly, a new form has become more common among youth in Egypt, again because of many social ills and a bad economy that lead to marriage being very expensive. So in order to have a sexual relationship a couple would go to a lawyer and ask to get married. The witnesses would be two people provided by the lawyer, and each party holds a copy of the marriage contract. This gives it a false legitimacy, since it is missing one important requirement which is announcing the marriage. Since the parents of the parties do not know that their son/daughter are married it is missing that important requirements, and in my view, the marriage is invalid.

However, the courts have accepted such marriages for one reason or the other, and the religious authorities are silent on the missing requirement for it.

Besides the proliferation of these marriages among high school and college age youth, it is also present among the wealthy when a man wants a mistress but wants to give it a veneer of legality. The other area where this is used is, as you say, by Egyptian men marrying foreign women, whether because he is married already, or it is a scam. But it is not the only (mis)use of this Orfi marriage.

Somehow calling this type of relationship a marriage is a misuse of the language even. Just like a "whore" or "prostitute" became "sex worker" of sorts. It should be called what it really is: a license for sex, nothing more.

I agree with you it is complex between people from different languages/cultures/religions. Marriage to someone from your same culture/language/religion is already hard work, I can't imagine how it is when there are barriers like that at every corner.

The reason I started this whole article and discussion was the amount of Western women contacting me for information on army service in Egypt. Upon investigating a bit, I found that there was a large scale scam in tourist areas, and some use "I have to go to the army" as an excuse to end the relationship, and gullible women would fall for it.

I was shocked and appalled that this is going in my country of origin, which is otherwise full of welcoming, helpful and generous people.

Others have been in the disbelief, or in denial about this whole scam.

So your husband is not alone here. Most Egyptians would feel like both of us on this matter.

Having a dedicated book about this topic is not feasible, in my opinion.

Writing a book is a mind draining exercise. It requires a lot of time and effort. It requires a publisher willing to fund it, promote it, print it, and then distribute it. Where will it be distributed? Europe or Egypt? Will it be in English, German, Dutch as well?

Big topic. This is why I do what I can, just publish it on a web site, when I have time.

A more feasible approach is to write a chapter on this topic in a travel book about Egypt. Something like the LonelyPlanet series or Rough Guides, where tourists are likely to find it.

If someone has contacts for this, and there is interest from the publishers, I can look into it.

Consider it a scam, until you have definite trusted third party verification that he is not ...

You are confused. You have shut yourself in a shell for so long, behind the "independent woman" facade, the successful career, ...etc.

Now that you met someone on a vacation, and listened to his smooth talk, your defenses have dropped, and you are doubting yourself.

Because he is from another culture, the normal cues that you would detect are not there, and you can't decide easily.

If he is working in a tourist area, then forget about him totally. End of story.

If you met him in a regular Egyptian city, and he is a professional, and you could meet his family, then perhaps ...

But all you have is "he says ...", and you have no way of objectively verifying anything he says.

"Speaking" 6 languages is easy for someone who has worked. Speaking is stretching it. Knowing a few words to get by is more like it. He probably got that from picking up Western women in bars and night clubs.

Forget him, it will never work with a professional tourist sweet talker ...

Isis, Hanan, can you please chime in here?